Bleeding Edge Workhorse PC-March 06

[Smitty]

saw cw's latest recommendations in The Age
...a good list as usual but one with a problem.
I can't find the power supply! The recommended Thermaltake case does not have a PSU included for that price (plenty will supply the empty case for that price)

Am I missing sumfing..???

[gto-pontiac]

try and keep it in one thuread.
as i mentioned on other post .
MSY got one and it should come with 430W power supply.

[limeburner]

What are the other parts recomended by CW this quarter? Can't find them on theage.com.au and I missed getting Thursdays GG..

[gto-pontiac]

sorry i meant by try and keep this topic to one place rather than having 2 question of the same thing....

[anandasim]

I've got friends who swear by Antec - more expensive though. Is there worthwhile difference between the Antec Sonata and the Themaltake that cw mentioned?

[limeburner]

GTO, can you please list the components on CW's list, thanks!

[anandasim]

cw might encourage subcribing to his email?
http://www.bleedingedge.com.au/blog/arc ... l#comments

[gto-pontiac]

as much as i like to list his list but, as anandasim mentioned if you are subcribing to bleeding edge you'll get one on monday.
and i like ever one who is intrested to subscrabe and continure to support CW, and bleeding edge.

[limeburner]

and how much does that cost?

[gto-pontiac]

$15 a year ( i think)
i think
give CW a E-mail and hi'll give you a bank detail.

[Jayant]

Where would you go to get such a PC? A few years ago I asked one of those computer stores that advertise in the Green Guide to build a PC for me, and it turned out to be of pretty poor quality.

[anandasim]

it turned out to be of pretty poor quality.

In what way was it poor quality? Workmanship? Parts? Incompatibilities of the hardware with Windows? Speed? Stability? Life of the Parts? After sales repair?

[Jayant]

In what way was it poor quality? Workmanship? Parts? Incompatibilities of the hardware with Windows? Speed? Stability? Life of the Parts? After sales repair?

Well, when I first took it home, it felt suspiciously light. I plugged everything in, turned on the power, and it didn't work. Went back to the store and got it replaced (took a week). This time it worked. But it was very noisy, came with no CDs (eg no Windows or Office disks from which I could reinstall software), and crashed very frequently (none of my other computers -- all of which are "known brands" -- have done that, and I use them all pretty much in the same way). No warranty, either. Was that just my bad luck to pick a dodgy store, or are a lot of them like that?

[cw]

You have to be absolutely rigid about the specifications. Too many retailers will snow the unwary consumer with suggestions that they've got a better motherboard etc. You can listen to what they say, but don't go ahead without carefully researching their alternative configurations, and seeking comments here or elsewhere.

The feedback I've had from readers suggests that if you stick to the specifications, and carefully match the prices, you'll be satisfied, if not delighted with your purchase.

I don't specify an operating system. Some people already have Windows, or can buy it with an academic discount, which I recommend you investigate. Others might want to use Linux.

I really don't recommend buying branded desktops.

[Jayant]

Thank you for the advice.

I already have Windows XP, but I thought it only works on one computer?

(I'm afraid I don't know much about these sorts of things.)

[anandasim]

But it was very noisy, came with no CDs (eg no Windows or Office disks from which I could reinstall software), and crashed very frequently (none of my other computers -- all of which are "known brands" -- have done that, and I use them all pretty much in the same way). No warranty, either. Was that just my bad luck to pick a dodgy store, or are a lot of them like that?

If you buy a branded PC from a general retailer (who also sells TVs, fridges, hifi, electrical appliances) you have a brand name manufacturer's warranty that you are used to, just like Sony, Panasonic or Ford Holden. There is a formal "service counter" - i.e. you stand on that side of the line, the repairmen and company policy stand on the other. You are not expected to know much/any geek detail in depth - they are supposed to hand you a working box.

If you buy a PC, assembled from parts you choose, you take the following responsibilities:

* that the parts chosen work together as a whole i.e. not that they are good parts but that there are no mismatches.

* that you have chosen a shop who has on staff, experienced technicians who have a documented, standard procedure in assembly and that the technicians adhere to it.

* that in receiving the completed PC, you have the knowledge to examine the PC to ensure that the parts inside are as you requested and not accidentally or otherwise substituted.

* that you know how to inspect that Windows is set up, that you can verify all the system software has been properly configured for that hardware.

* that you insist that all purchased software - Windows, Microsoft Office is given to you in the form of original CDs/DVDs and that all relevant manuals are supplied. It is quite common for some OEM hardware e.g. mice, CD/DVD drives etc... may not come with a manual for each piece - they may be sold to the shop as for example, a dozen in pack, with no manuals (hence they are cheaper)

Anyone of us or your friends can say that the whole will work, but we don't "own" that responsibility. It may be that there is some incompatibility between parts, or parts and OS or the version / batch of the parts may have changed since "we" recommended it or the assembler may have not been very competent or comprehensively trained or that they have an ISO 9000 approved assembly process.

A good parts shop should offer you parts and labour warranty for a year but that's for the part breaking down or poor workmanship, not for the part being chosen well or the whole working well together.

That "ownership" or responsibility would account for the $$$ disparity between a brand name PC and a no name PC. That, and a brand name PC would have a helpcenter website and call centre. The $$$ disparity would have been quite big those days of 1990s but the brand names have learnt how to package PCS which are lower cost (although not the same value).

People who buy custom built PCs or build them themselves, do it for a sense of excitement and fun at:

* choosing / shopping for the parts they want - the ability to mix and match.

* the excitement at opening the box themselves and getting their hands dirty to tweak this and that.

* paying less for the goods because they "own" part / all of the process of building the PC

* that there is more upgradeability in the long run because they are aware of what parts they bought - in contrast to the "ready made" PCs where you buy the black box, you don't have control of what's inside.

On the other topic, Windows XP retail copy only works with one machine. However, if your machine has died, then you can put it or arrange it put it on another machine. There are different prices for Windows XP - an academic version for use by students and academic staff is heavily discounted. Corporate copies of Windows XP can be installed on many machines - as long as the Microsoft knows how many.

[Jayant]

Thank you for going to the trouble to post such a long response. I think I will just stick to Dell. I can't open up a PC to examine the parts, and I don't have the knowledge to make sure I'm getting everything I asked for.

Also (and I'm very sorry if I'm hijacking this thread with my problems), when I purchase this new PC (which I need quite urgently), I'd like to have them both connected to the Internet through my existing BigPond account. I was told I need a router for this. Can anyone tell me from where I can get a router, and if it is easy to install? Would it require cables to run across my house?

[gto-pontiac]

agreed with anandasim
one thing i would add is to ask for every single BOX that parts came in.
and i would ask them to open the side pannel off so you can inspaect the parts ie, Video cards, Hard Drive, memory, some thing that you inspect.

secound question of yours yes you do need a router to share a internet connection with 2 or more computers.
to buy one go to any electriacl shop like Harvey Norman. and look for Router.
most of the router is easy to configure. if you ask a guys thire for the router and mention Big Pond ( is it cable or ADSL??).
or you can buy a wireless router so you don';t have Cat5 cable running around the house.
if you have difficalty setting it up come back here to ask us how to set it up.

[anandasim]

Another thing is some people like to "run in" their PC whether name brand or not. That means heavily using it for leaving it running for many hours after delivery to see whether any glitches arise, whether cooling of the system is good enough etc...

Sometimes, when you are reluctant to check the parts, you can run some analysis software - free - to report what the parts are etc... Even brand name machines may be accidentally delivered short of chosen memory or disk size.

Some people avoid buying name brands for the following reasons:

* the upgradeability or non manufacturer repair may be an issue when the boxes and fitings are designed to have different mounting points, screw holes, heights for common parts.

* they want particular high performance parts that the brand names don't provide

* they want more value "in hand" rather as warranty or a helpcenter

There are several common router brands - they don't cost much above AUD 100. You can have combo wired and wireless. Wired is faster, more stable under heavy traffic load, more secure against neighbourhood intrusion.

Router manuals are online so you can read before you buy. There are manuals as well as FAQs.

http://www.linksys.com.au/
http://www.netgear.com.au/
http://www.dlink.com.au/

[cw]

One thing to remember is this: if you pay the $70 assembly fee, which is included in the Workhorse PC specifications, and use a reputable company like MSY, you don't have to worry about touching any of the parts, or opening the box. They burn it in for you, and make sure you get a working PC.

[newman]

They burn it in for you, and make sure you get a working PC.

I'm not fully conversant with this issue. Why is it necessary to "run in" a computer? Aren't they, literally and metaphorically, supposed to work out of the box?

[gto-pontiac]

I'm not fully conversant with this issue. Why is it necessary to "run in" a computer? Aren't they, literally and metaphorically, supposed to work out of the box?

NO the compatability of the RAM to the Motherbaord, Video card can be only come out when you put then on full load,
and some RAM you buy that are not Branded might work for first hour or so but they "swith off" (can't think of word its stuck), same with hard drives if you don't put them on full load they work fine but when they do it might show a bad sector (bad example). and don't forget the PSU they might work fine with normal load or few min of full load but if you load the PSU for long it might creat too much heat so it might shut down on you.
so it is importan to put the new parts to the test when you put them in.
like run memtest for 2-4 hours, run read and write test to the hard drive, and so on.

[Smitty]

....
so it is importan to put the new parts to the test when you put them in.
like run memtest for 2-4 hours, run read and write test to the hard drive, and so on.

commonly called...'burning in the PC'


why burning?...coz its meant to work hard and get hot



cheers

[anandasim]

I'm not fully conversant with this issue. Why is it necessary to "run in" a computer? Aren't they, literally and metaphorically, supposed to work out of the box?

PCs are as much mechanical as they are electronic/electrical. And they are subject to heating, since they use electricity to work.

A sample of each component (but not every piece otherwise they have nothing to sell) is thoroughly tested at the factory. Every component is very briefly tested to see that it switches on and meets some measurement parameters. That satisfies a balance of quality as well as production output demands. If testing is made more comprehensive, then the component is sold at a higher price - someone has to pay for that. Testing is a cost.

After this brief testing, if you now take 100 of the same component and switch them on for a full 24 hours, comes the "moment of truth" - will you see any fail completely or underperform slightly? What temperature do you test them in? summer? winter? humid?

Now take a bunch of components - motherboard, psu, ram etc... and put them together. Each component is no longer running at the voltages and currents that are test conditions - if any of the components deviates, then the whole is affected. Thermally, the box is now imposing some airflow constraints - the temperature will be vary. Mechanically, this is the first time the components are fitted together - are the things mated tightly enough for good connection and what happens when the pieces expand / contract.

The name brands one would expect, should have a factory line - with proper workareas, dust minimisation and test rigs and quality procedures. The "build your own pc" mob vary in their work area. Some of the small shops are pretty close to yourself in your house - the work area may be neat, but it's not a production line with all the facilities. A conscientious worker will produce an excellent product (inclusive of "burn in"), a more oppurtunistic one might call a 5 minute "switch on" a "burn in".

[newman]

Sooooo.....

Is there an application I could use that'd test a range of things over time and provide me a report?

GTO mentioned "memtest". Is this a XP function or a third party program?

[gto-pontiac]

GTO mentioned "memtest". Is this a XP function or a third party program?

Memtest 86 stand alone program that don't need any OS on hard drive to run
http://www.memtest86.com/

[newman]

Thanx, GTO, you're a gem! By the way, I hope you don't mind, I've used the photo of Zucca's website as my desktop wallpaper. Looks cosy and inviting! If it's really a problem vis a vis copyright, please tell me and I'll take it off.

[gto-pontiac]

Thanx, GTO, you're a gem! By the way, I hope you don't mind, I've used the photo of Zucca's website as my desktop wallpaper. Looks cosy and inviting! If it's really a problem vis a vis copyright, please tell me and I'll take it off.

no problemo

[Paul]

Don't buy from Hardly Normal until you have checked out alternate prices. HN are generally 20% above the going rate so they can offer you "interest free" terms. If you have cash you can bargain them down to the same level as everyone else.

I'd also recommend the local retailer over someone like Dell/IBM etc.

cheers, Paul

[Jayant]

Well, despite your kind advice, I've gone for a Dell.

I'm thinking of buying a wireless router so I can share the internet connection. My friend told me that he did the same thing at home. He said he connected a wireless router to his old PC and modem, and purchased a PC card to put into the PCMIA slot at the back of his second PC. Does that make sense?